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From The Sayings Of The Jahmites: 'I Never Said That Allaah Is Not Above The Throne. I Said He Is Not In A Location Above The Throne'
Filed under: Rebuttal of the Jahmites
Sunday, October 04 2009 - by AboveTheThrone.Com
Key topics: Jahmee Doubts Sunni Answers Hudooth Ul-Ajsaam

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From the newly-innovated sayings of the Jahmites is:

I never said that Allaah is not above the throne. I said He is not in a location above the throne.

And they intend by this to negate that Allaah is actually above the Throne, and so we say regarding this saying:

  • When you are speaking to a Jahmite Ash'ari, then know that what he actually intends by his words is different to what you assume he means. For when the Jahmee says:

    I never said that Allaah is not above the throne...

    Then in his mind it is possible that what he is thinking is "Allaah is above the Throne in rank and status" (meaning, symbolically and metaphorically) and he does not affirm Allaah Himself is above the Throne and he may not even hold that the Throne is a true and real created entity but only a metaphor, but he wishes to deceive you - and it is a necessity that their creed be established upon deception and fooling and deceiving others through words and terms, their creed cannot be established by anything other than this. To learn more about this, see it for yourself from the words of al-Ghazali (d. 505H). Thus in his mind the Jahmite knows what he intends, but he leaves you upon your own assumptions and leaves you in your naivety to take him at face value and to think his saying is honey, when it is in reality poison. Thus it is necessary that you interrogate and examine this Jahmee by asking him what he means by "Throne", is it a true and real created thing or not? And what he means by "above", is it an aboveness of status and rank exclusive to an aboveness with the Essence? You need to pin the Jahmee down and make him express the true meaning of what he is saying, because what he means and what he says are most likely two different things.

  • When the Jahmite Ash'ari says:

    ... I said He is not in a location above the throne.

    Then you should know he is equal to the Jahmee who says, "I do not say that the Qur'aan is created. I say that my recitation of the Qur'aan is created." - like for like. Because this ancient Jahmee could not find any room to say "The Qur'aan is created" because the truth was manifest and the Salaf pushed these Jahmites against the wall, and they were debased and humiliated. Thereafter, they began to squeak, wimpishly, "My recitation of the Qur'aan is created", and they used this as a stepping stone to their view that the Qur'aan is created. and thereafter they were debased and humiliated again, for the Salaf were wise to these devils.

    And as for this Jahmite Ash'ari, then he found no way to deny that Allaah is above the Throne - and how is it possible for them to do so with the likes of these narrations from the Salaf, see here. So today's Jahmite Ash'aris have inherited the genotype of tajahhum of old, and you see its phenotypes expressed in both the Hulooli and Mu'attil Jahmee alike - and from such expressions that they cannot say openly is "Allaah is not above the Throne" as all people with sound fitrah would reject this from them in an instant, however they (the Mu'attil Jahmites) say:

    ... I said He is not in a location above the throne.

    And the intent behind this is to use it in order to arrive at the following saying:

    He is not in a location above the throne.

  • And the reason for their attempts to negate their is a Lord above the Throne is the same reason that Jahm bin Safwaan denied their is a Lord above the Throne. He used what was current amongst the Muslim lands, amongst the Atheist Philosophers of the metaphysics of the Greeks and of Aristotle in particular to devise a proof against some Indian Materialist Philosophers he was debating, and he argued that the presence of sifaat and a'araad and hawaadith (qualities, incidental attributes and occurrences) found in bodies (ajsaam) are evidence of their createdness, and thus the universe is created and thus there is a creator. So when those atheists said, "Fine, now describe your Lord to us", then he realized that if he described Allaah with what is in the Book and the Sunnah it would falsify his proof. Thus he turned upon the texts of the Book and the Sunnah with rejection and denied Allaah could be described with anything. And so Allaah could not be above the Throne because place (makaan) and direction (jihah) are from the incidental attributes of bodies. And it was on this basis that the Jahmites claimed the Qur'aan is created, that Allaah did not speak to Moses, that Allaah did not take Ibraaheem as His khaleel, that Allaah will not be seen in the Hereafter and that Allaah is not above the Throne - because all of that would necessitate that the intellectual proof for the existence of a creator would be falsified - because they all amount to - in the view of the Jahmites - as a'raad (incidental, temporal attributes) and hawaadith (occurrences) and this would mean that Allaah is a jism (body) like all the created bodies (ajsaam).

    And the Mu'tazilah took up this view because they also used that same proof which is called "Hudooth ul-Ajsaam", and they spread the ta'teel of the Jahmites, and with force and oppression when they had political strength, until Imaam Ahmad stood against them.

    And all of this was inherited by the Ash'aris through Abdullaah bin Sa'eed bin Kullaab (d. 240H) who tried to combine between the deen of the Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilah and that of Ahl us-Sunnah. To learn more about this, please read these articles: here, here, here, here and here.

And the response to this doubt is as follows:

  • The Universe is Finite: You cannot escape from affirming that this universe is finite, meaning that it must stop somewhere and have an outer limit or boundary, otherwise it is pure atheism to claim the universe is infinite, and anyone saying such a thing has spoken with plain manifest kufr.

  • The Notion of six directions Exists Only Within the Creation: As the above cannot be denied then the notion of the six directions only applies to what is within the boundaries of the said universe, and the six directions are all relative to each other as it relates to whatever is within the boundaries of the universe. And if anyone claims that the notion of six directions exists outside of the universe as it exists within the universe, then he has claimed that the universe is actually infinite and does not stop at any point, and he has spoken with plain manifest kufr. And this is true upon the basis of the language of the Mutakallimeen themselves, because to them "direction (jihah) necessitate place (makaan) and place necessitates something being a body (jismiyyah)" - so if the Mutakallimoon claim the notion of six directions exists outside of the universe, they have spoken with an infinite universe. This is because if the notion of six directions exists outside the boundaries of the universe, then those six directions can only be considered directions if they are in turn surrounded by six directions and so on - and so you have to go to infinity to maintain that claim, and this is pure atheism.

    It is impossible for you to affirm that the creation is finite and at the same time claim the six directions that exist within it and which are relative to each other, also exist outside of the creation. So either you affirm the creation is finite or you affirm it is infinite.

  • Allaah Has a True and Real Existence Outside of the Mind, Outside of the Creation: Following on from the above you cannot escape from affirming that Allaah exists outside of the mind, outside of this universe with a true and real existence and this true and real existence is signified by an essence (dhaat) that has a haqeeqah (a true existing reality that is unknown and unfathomable to us), and that this essence is established by itself (al-qaa'imu bi nafsihi) and described with attributes (sifaat). If you do not affirm this, you have not affirmed a true and real existence for Allaah, and this again is kufr.

  • Allaah is Above His Creation By Textual Evidence and Unanimous Consensus of the Salaf: And once we have established the above three points - the game is already over and the fraud is demolished - that's it. Because this leads us to the fourth point which is that in light of the above, this essence is not contained by the six directions as that is impossible, as has preceded. And by the textual ruling of the Book and the Sunnah, the relationship between the creator and the created is that Allaah is above His creation, and this establishes that there are only two true and real directions in reality, above (fawq) and below (taht). And the sound intellect agrees with the authentic text, so all of what has been mentioned above reconciles with and agrees with and conforms to what has come in the revealed texts.

    Note: Direction is not an existing thing in and of itself, it simply defines the relationship between two existing entities, and Allaah in His Book has stated both explicitly and implicitly in over 1000 places in His Book, that He is above His creation - and what the Kalaamists, Aristotelian Metaphysicists, and Philosophers speak of regarding "direction" (jihah) and "place" (makaan) and the metaphysical necessities they impose through them, as it relates to what is within the bounds of the universe, cannot and does not apply to Allaah.

    And this is the great mistake of these people - they have taken the metaphysical language, terminology and classifications from the atheist philosophers that have been used to characterize the observable universe, and then presumed that this same philosophy can be used to characterize what is uncreated, meaning Allaah. Thus, if something created is said to be above, then it must be a jism - according to the Aristotelian Metaphysics they have used for the foundation of their religion - and if this is the case for a created thing, then Allaah has got to be subject to the same principles and rules, such that if it is said about Allaah that He is above the heaven, above the Throne, he must be a jism as well according to the religion of the Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilah and Kafirs like Ibn Sina (see here) from whom the Ash'aris took their creed of saying "He is not within the creation nor outside of it". Thus, they have made tashbeeh and tamtheel between Allaah and His creation in the very foundational principles of their religion (thanks to the metaphysical language and terminologies they took from the Atheist philosophers) and this is why it has become impossible for them to speak of Tawheed with language other than "jism" (body), "jawhar" (substance) and their a'raad (incidental attributes).

    Further, Allaah sent Books and Messengers to guide us how to believe in Him and He did not leave it to the disposal of the language and terminology of the atheist and Greek philosophers (al-jawhar, al-'arad, al-jawhar al-fard, al-maqoolaat al-ashar - see here) and those who thought they could argue for Allaah's existence through it, such as Jahm bin Safwan (ex. 128H) and the Jahmiyyah, Abu al-Hudhayl al-Allaaf (d. 235 and the Mu'tazilah, and Abu Bakr al-Baqillani (d. 403H) and the Ash'ariyyah. And thus, as soon as it is established that Allaah did not create the creation within His essence and that Allaah is not within this creation, then you have at this point, defeated the denier. The game is already over at this point. The argument of the opponent is actually finished and demolished, its dead and buried.

    From this point onwards when he starts saying, "Allaah does not exist in a place", "Allaah exists without place", "Allaah is not encompassed by directions" and so on, all of that is just meaningless sophistry - it actually has no meaning to it at all. It is empty, fruitless, meaningless speech and it is not even applicable, because we have already established that the notion of six directions does not exist outside of the creation - even upon the language of the Mutakallimeen - otherwise they must affirm the universe is infinite which is kufr. They can't do that. As we have established that it is impossible for Allaah to be encompassed by the six directions as all created things are, when they make these statements "Allaah is not in a location" and so on, its talk which has no real meaning - their real goal is to deny there is a Lord above the heaven and a deity above the Throne - you need to read this article "The Four Doors" and then you need to read all of these sayings of the Salaf from the second and early third centuries to understand what is really going on.

    What is intended by all this speech of theirs is to reject the clear explicit texts in the Book and the Sunnah and the ijmaa' of the Salaf that "Allaah is above His Throne", but they can't do that directly, otherwise all people will come to know of their falsehood. And this is why they cannot quote from any of the Salaf prior to 300H who denied that Allaah Himself, is above the Throne, rather they only quote the latecomers, many of whom, whilst no doubt Scholars in their own right, were affected and influenced by the language of the Mutakallimeen. Ask them to trace their saying "Allaah is not within the creation or outside of it", to anyone from the Salaf before 300H, or lets say 400H to be generous. The only people they will find are Ibn Sinah the Kafir (see here), the Jahmiyyah and the Mu'tazilah.

    Further, the reason why they need to deny Allaah is above His creation is because according to Aristotle's Ten Categories (al-Maqoolaat al-Ashar) from the incidental attributes of created bodies are al-ayn (where), and al-idaafah (relative position) - and thus to keep in conformity with the Aristotelian Tawheed that follows on from their intellectual proof of "Hudooth ul-Ajsaam", any language in the Book and the Sunnah which implies al-ayn and al-idaafah must be treated as giving a presumption of jismiyyah (something being a body), which would invalidate the Aristotelian Tawheed and thus, what is contained in these revealed texts must be denied for Allaah.

So try establishing or arguing:

  • That the universe is infinite. It can't be done.

  • That six directions do exist outside of the universe as they exist within it. It can't be done with your Aristotelian metaphysical language - otherwise you've spoken with an infinite universe.

  • That Allaah has no true and real existence outside of the mind, outside of the universe. It can't be done.

  • That if Allaah exists outside of the mind and outside of the universe He must be contained by six directions. It can't be done unless you can argue in favor of the points that have preceded.

  • That the texts of the Book and the Sunnah as well as the innate instinct (fitrah) of people, all combined, do not amount to the saying that "Allaah is above His creation". It can't be done either.

  • That there are any Scholars from the Salaf from before 300H (or even 400H if we are generous) who held Allaah is not above the Throne, or who held that Allaah is "neither within the universe nor outside of it". It can't be done. The only people you are going to find are the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah!

Let the first Jahmee step forward and try arguing in favour of any of these sayings!



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